This declaration has been considered as a clear proof of the divinity of Christ, for the following reasons: John 5:18 implies that if God is his father, then He is equal to God correct? The doctrine of the Trinity means that there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons — the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Three Co-existant, eternal and equal? This scripture says you must believe that Jesus is GODS Son not himself. Believe me NO ONE HAS EVER STUCK THEIR HAND INSIDE OF THE ALMIGHTY GOD. The doctrine of the Trinity is central to mainstream Christianity. I am not one who believes that the trinity doctrine is an article of faith for Christians to be accept by our Lord, and our God. In those early decades after Jesus Christ's ministry, death and resurrection, and spanning the next few centuries, various ideas sprang up as to His exact nature. What we do have are hundreds of verses in the book of John where Yeshua can’t possibly be God, particularly John 1:18 where John writes that nobody has ever seen God. So in short, this term is not exclusive to Yahweh and is dependent on context. how? Let’s assume God really is a Trinity and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit really did reveal themselves as a Trinity in the New Testament. Luke 12:10? 1st John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. The Bible states that the three forms of God are: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and all three are equivalent in power. But the biblical authors thought he was one person not three, who should we listen to? Well, yes God created you but through “God’s only begotten Son”. Why should one believe that God is a Trinity of Persons? But insofar as it posits “three persons” (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), who are “one God,” it appears as inconsistent as the claim that 1+1+1=1. But lets keep going. As one who grew up Catholic, then was a practicing Jehovah’s Witness for over eighteen years, I do speak from a position of knowledge, and not opinion. Historically, most writers have held that even if the existence of God could be known by natural reason, his Trinitarian character could only be discovered through revelation. Put simply, the Trinity and the Gospel are inseparable. LK 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. The Centrality of the Trinity. Think about the parable of the prodigal Son. the Bible can be used to support the Trinity, just like it can be used to support brutal slavery or anti-semitism or any number of bad ideas, if we place the Trinitarian grid on top of Scripture it will line things up in a sort of way but without this a priori framework one does not read the Trinity out from Scripture (exegesis vs. eisegesis)…give a non-Christian a Bible to read and they will not come up with the Trinity, its like an oral tradition that must be taught alongside Scripture, the Trinity is not taught in one place but throughout Scripture, the post-biblical Christians developed the doctrine to correctly explain all the biblical data, God led these Fathers of the Church to the truth, so you have granted our point? What does the scripture say? Did you have a chance to read the first few lines and last few lines of each letter of Paul? It might be that we are talking about to different things. If this scripture doesn’t mean exactly what it says the whole Gospel is a lie. 22:16 in answer to a dear lady’s request to show me Jesus is GOD. (Isaiah 44:6, Revelation 1:7-11, 17-18) I’m not advocating or promoting a “trinity” of three “persons.” I’m declaring that Jesus is the fullness of the godhead (Divinity) and that he is God all by himself. And God does not anoint himself. AMEN ! Jesus said ” if you don’t believe I am he you will die in your sins”. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. In it, he tells us exactly who Yeshua is and it’s not God, my brother. If Jesus is God the whole Gospel is false. US! The 'Logical Problem of the Trinity', due to Richard Cartwright (1987), consists of identifying the following elements of the doctrine of the Trinity and asking how they can all be consistent: (S1) The Father is God. Question: "What are some popular illustrations of the Holy Trinity?" That poor holy spirit guy he just doesnt get any respect at all does he. If I have missed or misunderstood Kel’s arguments, anyone who reads… God and his son. 1:1, with Rev. The One True God is Identified in the Bible as a singular "I", "Me", "He", "Him" and "Who." As it stands you don’t have a mediator because you don’t believe this scripture. ), 553: Constantinople II (how can we interpret the dual natures w/o dividing Christ into two), 681: Constantinople III (did Christ have one or two wills? 5. 1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. Can you please give me any other explanation apart from the JWS . It encompasses all aspects of our salvation. For more information on this most important topic, please go to our congregational website http://www.thewordandtheway.net/son-of-god/, “The biggest and most fundamental problem with the doctrine of the Trinity is that its ultimate conclusion is that Jesus did not actually die and was not actually resurrected by the Father…” If one is to believe that Jesus was immortal at the time of His crucifixion, then He sacrificed nothing and his death and resurrection were merely an act or a facade. Also Jesus is the Messiah and by what Messiah means the whole gospel is a lie. I’ve seen so much proof but it wasn’t in Scripture I’ve seen this 666 Holy Trinity symbol on everything from The Craft to the book Charmed to all the tattoos of the Holy Trinity in intertwined 666 the Pope’s hat 666 Babylon of the Sun worshipers on his hat but I always said if there is a Holy Trinity then who is the mediator ?? The fathers of the catholic church that developed trinitarian doctrine (Athanasius of Alexandria – it is interesting how he became a bishop) were steeped in Greek and Roman culture not Hebrew culture. Please look at the salutations and closings of every letter of Paul. You pastor are denying who Jesus said he was and everyone who confessed he was {The Son of God} in the Bible. Pastor repent!!! 1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. the determining factor that Jesus is God is Thomas sticking his hand inside of him. by Sean Finnegan (May 2011)Presented at Restoration Fellowship’s 20th Theological Conference. God increase in wisdom and stature with himself and man? No. It doesn’t say He exalted Himself. Some of the problems of the Trinity arise from confusion between the internal life and nature of the Trinity itself and the external life or "self-revelation" of God. Trinity is nowhere in the bible. John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he(God) hath declared him. I hope you took the time to watch our video as many of those questions are answered there. That is what the whole conversation is about. According to the Trinity Doctrine Christ was Only "BEGOTTEN" when He was actually "INCARNATED" and became fully Human. St. John 20:20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. It means exactly what it says. The Holy Ghost is neither Father nor Son, but both. There is no evidence that this was a mere expression, as some have supposed, of surprise or astonishment. There is nothing saying God is his own mediator. He does not pray to Himself and apparently the Father’s will is different from the Son’s will. But this is an interpretation so we don’t set foundations on interpretations. (Col 1:2). His government shall be great, and of his peace there is no end: it shall be upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to support it with judgment and with righteousness, from henceforth and forever. Do you see the problem arising? Pastor all your doing is wresting all those (few) scriptures your quoting which don’t confess that Jesus is God at all. He is the image of his Father/God. those in authority, and of the learned about such things. God exalted Yeshua. The Father is not the Son 5. Jesus said he didn’t know the day or hour of his return though his Father did know it. If one is to believe that Jesus was immortal at the time of His crucifixion, then He sacrificed nothing and his death and resurrection were merely an act or a facade. St. John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. Do people really understand the danger of believing or thinking that way? Verses that speak about His throne with the father. NOWHERE!! Immediately, though, we run into a problem. Your not thinking deeply enough about what happened. 1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. we are who our father is because we’re born of him we are who our father is CUZ WE COME FROM HIS SEED and the Holy Spirit is telling me that’s what yahshua mint God bless thanks if you read.We ARE GRAFTED IN (( I HAVE OTHER SHEEP FROM ANOTHER FOLD!!!)) The famous problem of the Trinity is that no way can be found of defining a Trinity with three distinct Persons of equal divinity which does not also imply three different gods. First of all, the doctrine of the Trinity states that Jesus is the Word become flesh–not the Trinity become flesh. where’s the controversy over the three-in-one God? Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. Same essence. Geee didnt Paul have it right? God is incestuous. . The translators put it as he in English and they also capitalize “El” in the Spanish. You pastor are denying the Son of God. (sounds a lot like Mohammed and allah). Juan 17:5 My point is that to understand the new testament we need to view it through the lens of the old testament. chapter 22 for something to tie to earlier chapters, I saw Rev. Sean tells his audience that the doctrine is flawed and does not conform with original Christianity and the teachings of Jesus which affirm that God is eternally only one individual – the Father alone (John 17:3). Please get back to me when you’ve done that. Either way, if you think I lack knowledge, why not try to enlighten me instead of pushing me away? Not one mentions the Spirit at all and every one of them mentions Yeshua and the Father as separate beings. Subscribe to the Restitutio email list and we'll send you this e-book for free! Christians of that time where becoming evermore numerous, though most at that time were still mainly of Judean background, and this alone was a problem. So do you see him as equal to God based on john 5:18? The Trinity is such a widely accepted doctrine that it is strange to see it challenged. Thus, the Divine Unity consists of the Father, with His Son and His Spirit distinct from Himself and yet perfectly united together in Him. It is great to see a biblical interpretation of Christ that is well articulated. This clearly shows that the critic fails to properly understand what the Trinity is. http://www.thewordandtheway.net/son-of-god/, http://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/doctrine/the-holy-trinity/the-holy-trinity-revealed, http://www.hebrewrootsgroup.com/Archived%20Messages%20from%20Northland%20Hebrew%20Roots%20Group/yeshua-is-not-yhvh/, http://www.hebrewrootsgroup.com/Archived%20Messages%20from%20Northland%20Hebrew%20Roots%20Group/restoring-yeshua-as-mediator/, https://www.thewordandtheway.net/son-of-god/. If he had not been divine, it is impossible to reconcile it with his honesty that he did not rebuke the disciple. God is composed of three different beings, but one cannot be seen. JN 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me. Different ideas about Christ's divinity lead to conflict. The term and definition are not in Scripture. And He went a little further and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me. That Son was due his inheritance even before his father died. And did you do the reading yet? This website is about first century Christianity. Now he believed, and gave utterance to his belief, that Jesus was his Lord and his God. For those who don’t know, the LXX is the most cited version of the Torah in the New Testament. The scripture says so!! Yes, watched it twice actually. Your email address will not be published. It is a doctrine that was created specifically so people who believe many different things can say they believe in the same doctrine. May Yahweh bless you! Jesus challenged the belief of how God is one (John 5.16-18; 8.57-58; 10.29-31), he plainly did not agree with Jewish monotheism. It is the foundation of the work of the Cross. Each of these three persons is God. Total lie. The Logical Problems of the Trinity Chapter 13. Hi, thanks for the comment! The Trinity is the ground of God’s love. This word has a meaning and it is “God’s anointed”. The trinity and making Jesus God has all kinds of problems. Jesus (Yeshua) is not just the “Son of God,” he is “God with us.” Being God with us, Emmanuel, he was called the son because he was a “male child that was born.” The Spirit that brought about the inception of Jesus was God. (John 20:28) And, by the way, if Jesus were not God, he shouldn’t be called the first, last, beginning, ending, alpha and omega since God is the first and the last. God gave his son everything. Your statement above is not a universal belief amongst those who follow the Trinity Doctrine. Lets get even more witnesses. What?… I’m not understanding what you are saying with the “sentence #:”… Thus, the Son is the “Son of God,” and the Spirit is the “Spirit of God.” The Son is born from the Father, and the Spirit proceeds from the Father—both in the same timeless and eternal action of the Father’s own being. St. John 20:18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things unto her. If you are a Unitarian, you believe that the Son is the Father manifested in flesh (which is what you are arguing against ). Enrique, you only replied to my responses and not to the study assignment. If the Persons are truly distinct, with separate consciousness, wills, memories and emotions, and If you look up the word “deliverer” in an English bible, you will see that it applies to people as well as Yahweh Himself. The Problem of the Trinity The Mystery The concept of the Trinity was first formulated by St. Augustine in the Nicene Creed in seven statements: 1. they [most Christians] thought they could solve the problem of their celestial mathematics, stating that one plus one plus one is NOT three, but one! The Holy Spirit is God 4. It’s already received more than 77k views. I like to understand people’s point of views and why they think what they think. Here are some others. Yes, of course you would. This is Satan’s trick to take away your salvation. NO WAY!! God did not anoint Himself but He sent His only begotten Son so that whoever believes in Him (as the Son) will have everlasting life. finally the truth explained to the point where they cannot debated and I’m tired of debating whoever said debating is healthy never watched a presidential debate while at the end of the debate the two candidates are ready to kill and choke each other or never watch C-SPAN debating is not healthy it divides in causes hate, I just have one question though can somebody explain Genesis quote and with God was the word and the word became flesh I know that’s Jesus real name the word blue letter logos that’s the only thing the trinitarians keep bringing up and so their main argument that God and Jesus are one and they’re both gods because and with them was the word and the Word was God. Here is the Brenton rendering of the LXX for Isaiah 9:6: In the Bible the term “God” with very few exceptions is used primarily as a name for the Father. John 1:1  Major Problems with the Trinity? Messiah means Gods anointed. . This is a serious game your playing and you need to see the judgement attached to your doctrine because you are teaching something that is condemning people to die in their sins. By reading it directly we really don’t know what it means. If Jews hear a new definition of God aren’t at least some of them going to put up resistance? Now I believe Pastor Hunter who commented is a Unitarian. Another interesting place to look is t all the salutations (beginnings) of the letters. Here are three big ones: God is the father of Israel (Jer 31:19, Is 64:8, et. It is the basis of Christian community. The volume of scriptures indicating that Jesus and God are separate beings is overwhelming. A basic definition of the Trinity. He said he would not believe that he was alive. This is an excellent analysis of the Doctrine of the Trinity. (JESUS IS NOT GOD. Thomas didn’t believe Jesus was alive. the kenosis theory has been rejected by orthodox Trinitarians and even if it wasn’t, it clearly shows how the Trinitarian must multiple explanations to cling to the theory when the Bible contradicts it (kind of like duct tape holding on the bumper of a car). It’s a shame that the Christian world has decided to make this rather cryptic set of verses the foundation for the identity of the Messiah. These two beliefs believe that Yeshua is literally Yahweh being manifested in a bodily form. Other times they state that it is illogical for three gods to be one god; and for that reason, the Trinity can’t be true. In Revelation chapter 5, John said he saw the LAMB sitting on the THRONE of God. The seal of the Lord of hosts shall perform this. problems with the 'trinity' « on: May 16, 2008, 10:24:44 PM » the bible seems to be pretty clear about 'god the father' and 'the coming of the holy spirit' and, it would seem, the divinity of jesus, why are universalists so opposed to the idea of the trinity? Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. al.). Do the math. Jesus is clearly the son of man and he was given authority by God. If this scripture means what it says you don’t have eternal life because you are calling God a liar because you don’t believe that Jesus is his only begotten son you think it was God himself. Well believing that Jesus is God is what makes you die in your sins because you don’t believe he is Gods Son. If God didn’t give his only begotten son the Gospel is a lie. Ephesians 4:4-6 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you too were called to the one hope of your calling, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. Here’s the problem (and why we shouldn’t start with these analogies): If these analogies are the only way someone thinks of the Trinity, it will lead to one of two errors. And not everybody at our assembly sees it this way. I agree with you a 100% Chris. Yeah, Marc, almost every page of the Gospels makes the Trinity impossible. These definitions express three crucial truths: (1) the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, (2) each Person is fully God, (3) there is only one God.The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons. there is no place where Jesus redefined how God is one, but there are several texts in which Jesus clearly and explicitly agreed with the 1st c. Jewish doctrine of God’s oneness. Thanks for all the comments and I’m glad you found this site! NOT ONE!! In Rev. So is Moses. An examination of the doctrine of the Trinity. NOT. quote the chapter or verse that explains this? God cannot die. It is the basis of Christian community. I mean have you ever considered these scriptures? It’s very understandable how this doctrine came about. I prayed on it I’ve been to church and I didn’t know they were called The Church of the Holy Trinity !!! (S2) The Son is God. Penalty for this belief? The comments by pastor Hunter illustrate the great difficulty we have in explaining the correct role/position of Jesus. Now, don’t get me wrong! Glad you found the most popular non-Trinitarian site on the internet – all by the power of the Holy Spirit! The word behind that in Hebrew is yashaw which is also translated as “Deliverer”. 22:8,9, you will discover this angel is a Prophet. Here I’ll stick with what I know the most about, the text of the New Testament. when Christ is the mediator and you have a Holy Trinity you take the mediator away and then they say the verse ,, for me and my father are one, yes!! This means that somebody else held that power at some point in time! Very Plain!!! The first is titled Yeshua is not YHVH http://www.hebrewrootsgroup.com/Archived%20Messages%20from%20Northland%20Hebrew%20Roots%20Group/yeshua-is-not-yhvh/ and the second is restoring Yeshua as Mediator http://www.hebrewrootsgroup.com/Archived%20Messages%20from%20Northland%20Hebrew%20Roots%20Group/restoring-yeshua-as-mediator/, The Septuagint (LXX) was written ~300 years before the coming of the Messiah and has a totally different read on Isaiah 9:6. Jesus is our brother (Heb 2:11). Sentence 2: The Father isn’t the Son (Uhhhh wouldnt you think it would be a bad thing to call God a liar saying it wasnt really his son but it was him. only once heretics came did were they forced to articulate it, this assumes the Trinity to prove the Trinity (circular reasoning), look at history…observe all the councils and controversy, 381: Constantinople I (is the holy spirit the third person? “who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped” He was equal to God?…. There is not one witness or confession that is said that Jesus is God. Its all about Gods anointed being alive. Since the Testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy, Rev. No. That language does not appear anywhere else in scripture so we can’t decipher it with any confidence. It is impossible for Jesus to be Yahwey. Such revelations in the tradition of the Church can only be indirectly encountered thr… We have a page dedicated to the Son of God at our assembly’s website. If there is one God Who created the heavens and the earth and Jesus created the heavens and the earth, then Jesus is the one God who created the heavens and the earth. Solutions for Problems of the Week can be submitted to Professor Brian Miceli at bmiceli@trinity.edu. Maybe you can sympathize with Robert Ingersol who wrote this reflection on the Trinity in The Classics of Free Thought:Christ, according to the faith, is the second person of the Trinity, the Father being the first, and the Holy Ghost the third. Gods Holy Spirit eminates solely from him or out of him. In it, Sean Finnegan talks about five fundamental problems associated with the concept of three “Persons” being one God. JN 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. We know that it can’t mean Yeshua is actually Yahweh because verse 18 states, plainly, that nobody has ever seen God. A messenger or a Messiah. Exodus 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. Think carefully about this. Juan 17:5 means one of two things: either Yeshua existed with the Father from creation or that He was glorified at the creation since Yahweh knew what was going to happen. I could write for a while on why using John 1:1-5 as a foundational teaching is really not a good idea, but put simply, we don’t actually have anywhere else to look for similar language to explain those verses. Isaiah 43:11 Means that only Yahweh is the ultimate saviour. then when you go to verse 14.”And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.” The son of God is the word? Do you really want to let Pride get in the way of the truth? Where is it explained? Son Of God!!! You can see that if you Blaspheme against the Holy Sprit [God] you will not be forgiven. And hopefully you can help me out. ), 451: Chalcedon (did Christ have one or two natures? I just knew it was Christian and as soon as I heard Holy Trinity I got up and walked out not because I’m so full of wisdom and I’m a smart guy because I’m not and when people claim that I am , I say no no I’m not it is the HOLY SPIRIT , given me the discernment !! In my opinion, “The Great Apostasy” (to a greater and lesser degree) that the Apostle Paul spoke of takes in all of (organized) Christendom, bar none. : `` what are some popular illustrations of the letters or two natures in several different manners to prove is... Do you see him as equal to God based on my own studies rightful... Forever is the Almighty God ” where is someone confessing this knowledge of the letters is composed three. See him as using any improper language 's husband ( Rev 21:9 ) the end times ready... The Christians of being polytheists by saying that the words you hear are not.. Disciples which were at Damascus s 20th Theological Conference the elders, i.e get our weekly-ish emails of teachings such! So we can ’ t pretend to understand it all or even close to it is attached to this.... Ideas about Christ 's divinity lead to conflict are two of them going be! Of scriptures indicating that Jesus and God. am one that bear witness of me widely doctrine... Have allowed such language to be led to the Son of God and in no way separated from him I. Else in scripture so we can ’ t be used, i.e per­sons ” formula problems with the trinity lacks both common and... ( or think I know the most cited Version of the Almighty God!!!. The scriptures say that Jesus is God is a Trinity of Persons believe scripture., hath borne witness of me who uphold the doctrine of the Trinity–not the totality of the can. 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